Subject: Keep sending HD committee members e/mails. Borrow this one or construct your own. Keep it clean, short and to the point.


denis.brennan@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk
peter.ricketts@fco.gov.uk
Bill.Jeffrey480@mod.uk


Dear Mr Brennan, Mr Rickets, and Mr Jeffrey, (members of the HD committee)

“WEARING THE PINGAT JASA MALAYSIA.”

Just as well you were not members of an HD committee in Queen Victoria’s reign. Otherwise the returning service personnel of the late 1850's would never have been allowed to accept or wear the 'Turkish Crimean Medal' along with their British Crimea medal.

www.royalengineers.ca/tc.html

Yours sincerely

Malaya Borneo Veteran
www.fight4thepjm.org

name & Address supplied.

Denis Brennan is on leave until the 20 August, but you could always send him an email on that date asking him if he managed to pick up any foreign awards while on holiday.

any emails before that date will be reditected

Paul Alders wrote:

Denis Brennan is on leave until the 20 August, but you could always send him an email on that date asking him if he managed to pick up any foreign awards while on holiday.

any emails before that date will be reditected

Paul, Parliament recess is from 26 July to 8th October 2007.

http://www.parliament.uk/what_s_on/recess.cfm

Unlike elected politicans civil servants work right through the recess. If any of them go on shorter summer holidays there is always staff in their offices to take incoming mail.

This thread is called "Protest and how", and all I am trying to do is keep subscribers to this site interested in recording their protests be they to Newspapers, politicans or civil servants to let them know the PJM medal protests are far from dead.

It seems the story remains the same -

How about this one then Fred from TheLG to myself


TSO Gazette - London <gazette.london@tso.co.uk> wrote:
It depends what you are referring to!!! When legal notices are placed in the london gazette, they are normally deemed to be cast in stone, which is why some notices like partnerships dissolving which need not be placed in the gazette are placed in there, so in effect the customer is safe guarding themselves!!

or this one from the MOD!

Subject: Crown Servant
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:38:09 +0100
From: "Marchant, Norman Mr" <Norman.Marchant806@mod.uk> Add to Address Book
To:
Dear Mr Cooper



Thank you for your enquiry about Crown Service which you directed to my colleagues in the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency. Your message has been passed to the Veterans Policy Unit of the Ministry of Defence and I have been asked to respond.



The most concise definition of Crown service I have been able to find is on the HM Revenue & Customs website. It states :-



Generally speaking Crown servants are employees whose-



· Offices or employments are carried out under the Crown,

· Duties of employment are of a public nature, and,

· Salaries are paid out of the public funds of the UK or Northern Ireland.



Examples of offices or employments under the Crown are:



· HM Armed Forces

· Civil Servants

· Diplomats



Using these criteria, whilst you were serving in HM Armed Forces you were considered to be a Crown servant. My understanding is that the definition would cease on your leaving the Forces.

However, when members of the regular Forces leave the Service, they may be liable – for a set number of years – to be called out if they are needed to man or support an operation. During any period of recall, you would again be considered as being in Crown service.



Of course, even after leaving the Forces, you continue to be subject to the provisions of the Official Secrets Act covering any information, document or article which you had or have in your possession by virtue of your Crown service.



If you are unsure whether any subsequent employment you may have had qualifies as Crown service, you should contact HM Revenue & Customs direct.



I hope that this helpful.





Norman Marchant

DS Sec VPU Vets-Proj5

Ministry of Defence

Level 7, Zone I

Main Building

Whitehall

London SW1A 2HB

norman.marchant806@mod.uk


_________________
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HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
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Redcapfred wrote:

It seems the story remains the same -

Why not ask Richard Coney, why was this FCO 1969 clause not published in the London Gazette if it is so important? After all the MOD medal wearing rules suggest all ex service personnel must only abide by the London Gazette.

This 1969 document lieng in a file that has not been published in the public domain sounds another piece of chicanery made up by the cabinet office.

Other questions Mr Coney could be asked to explain.
No1) Why was the LG 1968 document published if is wrong?
no2) Who are these people (if they are not veterans who are no longer in service of the crown) who are allowed to wear officially awarded foreign medals unconditionally???????

This opens another question. If we are servants of the Crown even now when using zimmer frames to get to the post office to collect our pensions, why then did we not get the Golden Jubilee Medal?

Coney I fear is a typical Civil Servant and talks with forked tongue giving rise to bureacratic double talk. I am of the opinion that the London Gazette entry is correct allowing ALL medals to be worn if given to you after the end of your service when no longer a Crown Servant (Customs & Excise Definition) and it matters not a hoot about the service you rendered being whilst serving as the 'Commemorative' was instituted and confered after you served.

Perhaps it's time to tell this prat that he is in the wrong job! There are vacancies on my council............refuse department.

John

Redcapfred wrote:

It seems the story remains the same -

Fred, I have constructed this e/mail but have not sent it unless I get your permission.

Fred I have jus added another question to the post. Thanks


Mr RT Coney Defence Services Secretary Honours 1
Ministry Of Defence Eight Floor, Zone J
Richard.Coney506@mod.uk
Main Building, Horseguards Avenue, Whitehall, London SW1A 2HB

31 July 2007

Dear Mr Coney,

WEARING OF THE RUSSIAN CONVOY MEDAL AGAINST THE NON WEARING OF THE PINGAT JASA MALAYSIA

Having first read your recent letter on the fight4thepjm.org/forum (reference D/D Sec/1102/ 11/2) to a veteran concerning the non wearing of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia http://upload2.postimage.org/48313/photo_hosting.html

And then having read the following from the MOD veterans agency website I wish to ask you questions Mr Coney which I hope you have the decency to answer?

‘The Russian Convoy Medal’

“In 1994 The Queen granted permission for this medal to be accepted and worn by eligible British citizens. This was considered acceptable in the light of changed circumstances in Russia since the medal was first issued, the improvement in relations between the United Kingdom and the Russian Federation, and the fact that the medal was a commemorative issue, recognising the passing of forty years since the end of the war, rather than a foreign campaign medal.”

http://www.veterans-uk.info/medals/russian.html

No1) How come WW2 veterans were allowed to receive and wear the 40th Anniversary Russian Convoy Medal with the approval of The Queen and why were these veterans not classed by the HD committee as still being servants of the crown?

No2) Why are Malay Borneo Veterans classed differently to WW2 veterans by both yourself and the HD committee in relation to the wearing the Pingat Jasa Malaysia?

No3) Why and for what reason did the FCO publish this statement in the London Gazette 3 May 1968, and which people is it directed towards if Veterans long left the armed forces are considered by yourself and the HD committee to be still in service of the Crown when they were, and still are, to be awarded the Pingat Jasa Malaysia instituted 2004?

FOREIGN OFFICE
COMMONWEALTH OFFICE
ORDERS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS CON-
FERRED BY MEMBERS OF THE COMMON-
WEALTH OF WHICH THE QUEEN IS NOT
HEAD OF STATE, AND BY FOREIGN
COUNTRIES.
The QUEEN has been graciously pleased! to approve
that Orders, Decorations and Medals conferred with
Her Majesty's permission upon United Kingdom
citizens not being servants of the Crown by the
Heads or Governments of Commonwealth countries
as defined above, or of foreign States, may in afl
cases be worn by the recipients without restriction.


Yours sincerely


Malaya Borneo Veteran
www.fight4thepjm.org



Last edited by MB_Veteran on Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

I thank you for being decent enough to seek my permission and have no objection to ANYTHING I post being used in any way to help our cause. I intended to ask Richard Coney myself but, as you are writing, you could also ask him "Why, if WE were denied the right to wear our medal on the grounds that we are bound by FCO Regulation Section A, Point 14, is Sir Robin Janvrin NOT, for he has just received the right to accept, AND WEAR, his medal commemorating the 25th Anniversary of Independence of Antigua and Barbuda and is currently a Crown Servant?"

He stated in his letter to me "It is understood that along with a number of Malaya/Borneo veterans you have interpreted the material as granting permission to wear foreign awards, including the PJM".....Was that NOT what it was intended to do then?????

Silly me, it's no wonder he think's I'm disaffected, I should have known the LG statement was published to tell people they CANT wear their medals !

Redcapfred wrote:

I thank you for being decent enough to seek my permission and have no objection to ANYTHING I post being used in any way to help our cause. I intended to ask Richard Coney myself but, as you are writing, you could also ask him "Why, if WE were denied the right to wear our medal on the grounds that we are bound by FCO Regulation Section A, Point 14, is Sir Robin Janvrin NOT, for he has just received the right to accept, AND WEAR, his medal commemorating the 25th Anniversary of Independence of Antigua and Barbuda and is currently a Crown Servant?"

Thanks Fred, I will send the e/mail later. The Janvrin argument is more to do with duplicity over the five year rule. I will leave you to ask him that question. However you will need some documented evidence to support that the Queen Private Secretary received and was given permission by The Queen to wear the 25th Anniversary of Independence of Antigua and Barbuda medal, otherwise Mr Coney will just dismiss it as speculation.

That's me snookered then !

Redcapfred wrote:

That's me snookered then !

Fred, We are even snookered when we send documented evidence. Then they just accuse us of wrong interpretation. Then when caught in a corner they just change the rules and make up new ones, and we are supposed to be living in a democratic Morarchy. Bah Royal perogative over this PJM issue just stinks of hypocrisy and duplicity all to save face and the condecending ego of the HD committee.

Redcap Fred...

It is my opinion....and of course I do not consider myself to be as knowlegeable a 'medal expert' as some...but here goes anyway:

It would not be necessary for Her Majesty to approve the wearing of the Antigua & Barbuda Medal at all....Antigua & Barbuda is a Realm (as is my home, Canada)....The Queen is Head of State and has a Governor General resident in that country...in such a Realm any medal struck by that country is deemed automatically wearable by anyone to whom it is awarded....this of course differenciates it from the PJM, which was struck by a country of which the Queen is not the Head of State...consequently one requires HM's permission to wear said medal.

That is probably not particularly well explained?...but I did 'fess up' to not being an expert....I'll try to find some authoritative language to bolster my opinion given a wee bit of time....


_________________
...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.