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Martin
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Berkshire
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Officialdoms atitude
I wonder if this explanation would enlighten the PJM puzzle? It is a puzzle, why this mess got started in the first place. From my RAF days, I learned that orders, permits, leave and other dispensations were NEVER issued twice! If you missed out, it was tough, you went without. In May '68 blanket permision for non crown servants (includes veterans) to wear `accepted' medals was made in the accepted fasion with a declaration in the London Gazette. Years later, after being persuaded to grant acceptance of the PJM, permision to wear WASN'T sought, (it wasn't needed!) triggering the subsequent arguments. The observation here is, that they (the H.&D. C.) wouldn't recomend granting permision to wear, because it had already been granted in May '68. They wouldn't state this publicly, for the reason that it had already been stated (in May '68!) publicly. I'm not making excuses for anyone, just pointing out how things work in oficial circles, everyone is expected to keep their eye on the ball, all the time. This would explain why the copy of the May '68 London Gazette was at the H.&D. C's office for a year in the first place! Maybe they weren't hiding it, it took that long for them to read it? Kind of reduces their `smear' a bit, when looked at in this light doesn't it? As with all dealings with officialdom `Blood from a stone' comes to mind!
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Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:25 am |
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GLOman
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 668
Location: Northamptonshire
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Martin
Welcome. Of course you're entitled to your opinion and your reasoning. I don’t share your view or your reasoning.
1. It was not ‘blanket’ permission. The LG is quite clear:……….conferred with Her Majesty’s permission……citizens not being servants of the Crown………as defined above…………may in all cases be worn by the recipients. In early 2005 the PJM was accepted by Her Majesty to which, later, a caveat that ‘permission to be worn formally will not be given” was added after its acceptance. After almost 12 months review, a statement was made in the House of Commons which included the statement that it would not be worn.
2.Your premise as to what happens in official circles is, I venture to say, totally wrong.
Of course, they may not have discovered the LG until after we had done so; conversely they may well have been aware of its existence and fervently hoped that we would not uncover this fact. It is academic as to whether we received a tip off. “Everyone is expected to keep their eye on the ball”.
3.“The HD Cttee wouldn’t recommend granting permission to wear, because it had already been granted in May 68”. That argument doesn’t even stand up; it is not a question of them not granting permission because permission had already been granted by the LG (Royal Sign Manual, incidentally). It is a question of why the HDC (or its component individuals) imposed the " permission to wear formally will not be given" retrospectively well after it had been accepted by HM. The various ceremonial offices of the Cabinet, Home Office, FCO MoD DS Sec continually offered reasons why the PJM could not be worn, e.g., still servants of the Crown, 5 year rule, double medalling. The LG doesn’t cover Commemorative or campaign medals, although the LG doesn’t, these are simply departmental rules or at the best guidelines arbitrarily imposed, or like Part C of the 2005 revised rules which simply precluded the PJM per se from being worn. The PJM, Pingat Jasa Malaysia translated comes out as Service to Malaysia Medal and is neither a campaign nor commemorative medal. You should be aware of he following:
Permission to accept and wear a foreign award will be granted on either:
An unrestricted basis - allowing the award to be worn on any occasion.
A restricted basis - allowing the award to be worn only on particular occasions associated with the foreign state that conferred it.
This extract is taken from their revised rules of 2005. No where does it say that "permission to wear will not formally be given" They even went as far as saying that Her Majesty had graciously permitted it to be worn for the period of the Malaysian Merderka 2008 celebratiions, and then only by those attending the events in Malaysia; not by those in the UK, in direct contravention of their own rules.
4. It is likely that this departmental rule, allegedly commanded by HM, is possibly a misuse of the Royal Prerogative. “Kind of reduces their smear a bit doesn’t it; no it is not a smear at all, but a revelation if you really wish to look in to the matter in much more detail. The foregoing is more likely to be that which occurs in"official circles", indeed their action might well be interpreted as "misconduct " in their Public Office.
5. I do not believe that it is like “getting blood out of a stone” but rather that the "cleaning out of the Augean stables" is required; cleaned by Heracles in a day, those in Whitehall, perhaps in many months, years or a lifetime.
Yours in friendship,
David
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Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:31 pm |
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Paul Alders
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 931
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Martin
Many thanks for your comments.
I can assure you that in 2004 & 5 the HD Committee of the time had no knowledge of the LG Notice 5057 as it was in the National Archives at Kew and was not one of the two files that the FCO, MoD & the Cabinet Office were looking at.
It was only the obstructive attitude of certain Civil Servants by keeping these two files away from us that lead this PJM Association to Kew with a professional researcher who photographed all files referring to foreign awards.
I and others then spent many hours reading and rereading these files dating back to the 1850’s some of them handwritten (I now know that there are two things that can make you go blind).
When we made the FCO aware of the LG Notice it took them a long time after consulting with the Cabinet Office to come up with misleading statements to discredit this notice.
Your Association have taken legal advice and this advice states that you can wear the PJM under the terms of the LG Notice 5057.
Certain Senior Civil Servants do not accept this and continue to mislead Ministers.
I must point out that the professional researcher on seeing our case to wear the PJM refused to take any payment for her work for which we shall always be grateful.
Paul
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:38 am |
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Martin
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Berkshire
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Opinions
Please don't take my original post as representing my `opinion' of this situation we find ourselves in, for it would be an uninformed one. It (my post)was offered as a casual observation of `their' attitude towards us. Unlike the rest of society, the government and it's various departments and quangos have never aspired beyond the `us and them' attitude of a time long past. I am not privy to the actual inquiries you and our comrades in F4 have been involved in, regarding the in's and out's of this matter, the details of which should surely be good enough to write a book on? That you have all worked very hard and long on our behalf, is something we are all thankful to you for.
I have worn my PJM with my GSM (Malay Peninsular) last year and have had a ribbon/broach made up, that I can wear on my jacket when I'm out. I'll venture this as my opinion, that it is important to wear the PJM or the broach, whenever we can, to fly in the face of the H. & D. C., because there are 519 of our comrades that cannot do so! This is one forgotten war we won't let them forget! Though I wouldn't advise anyone to hold their breath waiting for a favourable outcome of this matter, one only has to look at how long it took government to overturn the official attitude towards the poor `cowards' shot to death because they suffered shell shock in the `Great War', that took over eighty years to resolve and the injustice to PJMer's may take just as long to resolve.
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:14 pm |
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GLOman
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 668
Location: Northamptonshire
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Martin,
Perhaps I read a little too much into your post. We should always welcome new posts,
we don't get a lot of comrades put thoughts to print, though of course there is no obligation for them to do so, anyway well done.
Incidentally I am merely a supporter who enjoys putting pen to paper (or rather emails), either as posts on this site, or direct to MPs of all sides, and of course the members of the civil service in their various departments, indeed, in the ceremonial set up, one might say too many departments and ripe for reducing to one department, with new staff, senior and junior, as part of the many cuts the next government, whoever it is, will have to make; most certainly not in the vital and necessary departments of MOD, but certainly in MOD DS Sec. cermonial.
You are quite right in your observations re the civil serpents as we call them.
Like you, I have my PJM ribbon on a 3 bar with my other ribbons , and wear it when medals are not called for.
Best wishes,
David
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:02 pm |
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Martin
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Berkshire
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Motives and mentality
We're okay David,
I am puzzled by the actions of HM's slither serpents, in a world of sectarian differences, where a single indiscretion can fire up a wall of hatred for generations.
Malaya, a strongly muslim country, very devout, that makes a jesture of comradeship with the UK, by applauding its military of fifty years ago and striking a special medal, for supporting them in their time of need. This when the rest of the world varies from commercial toleration of the UK, to vitriolic hate! To this we responded, in true UK diplomacy, by declining their very kind offer. It took much persuasion to get them to accept the medal from Malaysia. Then `they' start feuding with we veterans, in a faulty argument over the `right to wear' of the medal. In real terms, more money has been wasted by our goverment on resisting this medal, than Malaysia spent on producing it! Plus the loss of our credibility to a foreign power by insulting their generosity. Seems like the YOB culture has shifted from the streets into the slither serpents den. Yes, I'm puzzled but perhaps I should worry too and vote more carefully!
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:07 pm |
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Arthur R-S
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 860
Location: Brandon, Suffolk
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Just to remind you Martin, nobody votes for civil serpents. I am reliably informed that when the conservative party gets put into power, they are going to replace all of the civil servants with coffee machines. At least you will then get what you pay for, and if there is a difference of opinion, it would be classed as a storm in a teacup.
A certain Roman Emperor made his horse a Senator. Pity, because all we have got is just a load of donkeys.
Yours Aye
Arthur R-S
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:24 am |
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Martin
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Berkshire
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Voting
Well commented Auther, but as in wishing one has to be carefull of whom one votes for. Pollies and their promises are as trustworthy as secondhand car salesmen! I niether trust or like the conservatives, new labour or old labour, they're all the same in a different flavour and their civil servent cronies are the same whoever wins an election. But there are other parties to vote for, not just as a protest vote, if their support is strengthened so will their capability to govern and will their ability in oposition to the party in power, the latter probably is the most important, as at this time, the only oposition there is as bad as Browns lot.
I do hope their is no-one stupid enough to vote for the extreme right or left parties, we're close enough to being a police state as it is!
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:06 pm |
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Arthur R-S
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 860
Location: Brandon, Suffolk
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Martin, thank you for your comments. You do realise that we are apolitical and all political parties are up for ridicule. In the interests of fairness, the conservatives haven't actually screwed the country up yet, but given the same opportunity as any other elected party, they surely will.
I hope that clears that up.
Yours Aye
Arthur R-S
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Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:06 pm |
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MB
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 807
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Well said, Arthur.
As an old hand on the F4 I refrained from saying as much myself because of upsetting people in the past, and having to stand on Jock Fenton's mat to get a well deserved bollocking. That, however, was when I was a mere youth of about 69. Some three years later into this tussle with the serpents and seemingly all disinterested political parties ignoring us I am a wiser man. The term, "pie crusts," comes to mind, along with the word, "promises." We can rely on nothing other than our determination to stay alive and fight on. Political parties offer nothing more than promises which, like pie crusts, are made to be broken. We need "something" more than that....but what?
_________________ Mike Barton
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Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:53 pm |
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Martin
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Berkshire
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{ We need "something" more than that....but what?}
But do we? Looking at what we have and away from that which we have not, can be revealing. We have Morality and common decency, comradeship, freindship and we honour the memories of those who went before us. We, are veterans, we are different from those civil servants, many of which, have never served in the military and follow the codes and practices of Whitehall. They, have rivalry, deciet, backstabbing and dishonesty, they confuse honour with political survival and elitism is cultivated to a fine art.
These differences reveal the problem, it is a different flavour of `Us and Them'. `They' don't really understand what we are asking of them. We, don't know why `they' don't understand our demands. On the face of it, we all speak the same language, but in fact we do not. Whitehallese is a unique dialect, known only to denizens of Whithall.
One of the plusses this sorry state of affairs created, is the strengthened bonds of friendship between veterans accross the globe. People know now of others, who before all this, were just `other people' in `other places' but now are comrades and friends, enjoying reunions, swapping stories and memories. So the H&D.C's PJM `fiasco', has in a way been good for us? I'll bet they'd hate that!
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:59 am |
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Arthur R-S
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 860
Location: Brandon, Suffolk
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No Martin, they would claim the kudos of 'bringing us all together', which befits their warped perception of reality.
We brought ourselves together, and stand united against an insideous organisation, dedicated to their own career advancement at the expense of others.
Yours Aye
Arthur R-S
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:54 am |
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Arthur R-S
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 860
Location: Brandon, Suffolk
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No Martin, they would claim the kudos of 'bringing us all together', which befits their warped perception of reality.
We brought ourselves together, and stand united against an insideous organisation, dedicated to their own career advancement at the expense of others.
Yours Aye
Arthur R-S
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:54 am |
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Martin
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Berkshire
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`They' might think to try, but only to fail. As you say, `We' pulled ourselves together, but my point was that their decision kickstarted our `rally to the flag', indeed this marvelous site we frequent, too, is a result of H&D.C's knavery. None of it is to their credit though, had the PJM recieved a fairer decision, these discusions on this forum on this site, would never have happened. `They' really did get egg on their faces with this and instead of `wiping it off' with a little dignity (righting the wrong), they just bury their heads in the sand and wait for us to `go away' (but we won't, will we?). This will be a long drawn out dispute, over sevearl generations, that might reach a result, maybe. As I've refered to elsewhere on these lists, it took over eighty years for the unfortunate victims of first world war shell shocked `cowards' to recieve a reversed decision about their unfortunate fate (Shot at Dawn). A much graver issue than ours (lit) that their desendants and relatives unceasingly fought succesive governments to have righted. Will ours do the same for us? We can only hope....
_________________ Website:- www.virgoprestige.multiply.com
Memory Lane can be a very long walk, with many turns along the way
Along it you may stop and talk, to folk from yesterday
If you remember me, dont pass me by
Wait and pass the time of day,
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:27 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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Whitehall mandarins face sacking threat under Conservative plans
"Whitehall mandarins face an unprecedented threat of sacking under Tory plans to end the "job for life" culture of the civil service. The Conservatives are drawing up plans that would allow ministers to dismiss permanent secretaries, the senior officials who run Whitehall departments. No permanent secretary has been formally dismissed for more than 70 years. Francis Maude, the shadow Cabinet Office minister overseeing the Tories’ preparations for power, wants to end the “job for life” culture at the top of the civil service and make officials directly accountable for the performance of their departments." - Daily Telegraph
We can only live in hope but in the meantime our 'band of brothers' can only keep on fighting as truth and justice will some day prevail. The Honours and Decorations system of our government is in a complete mess because there are too many civil servants and mandarins compounding the lies and incompetence.
The latest 'howler' from the MoD is that any foreign national who earned the PJM in the British Forces and was issued with the medal through the MoD can wear it but if he comes to live in the UK and becomes a British citizen his right to wear it is withdrawn.
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:12 pm |
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